This topic contains 12 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  mharmon 6 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #13951

    notarywelove
    Participant

    Wife, Janet Smith, (grantee-Attorney In Fact) has the Power Of Attorney from her husband, Joe Smith (grantor).

    She signs in their Deed of Trust document, signs & thumb prints in my journal entry.
    She also signs her husband’s name: Joe Smith by Janet Smith as his attorney-in-fact.

    Cool.

    Do I need to ask her to sign as her husband in my journal as well? I don’t think so. My reason: Her husband’s signature is recorded in that POA form and in his Notary Public’s journal.

    Am I right? 🙂 Thanks for answering this one… Appreciate.

    #14218

    Geber
    Participant

    Of course, I can’t see what the document looked like before the wife signed, but it might have just had a blank line for Joe Smith. It isn’t always the case that all the signature lines are signed on the same occasion; sometimes the document is mailed around the country to collect the various signatures before various notaries. So if you don’t enter in your journal that the wife signed as AIF for the husband, someone might claim she didn’t and that some unknown person in some unknown place illegally signed that line.

    Since my imagination isn’t good enough to predict what might happen in the future, I document everything, in case some question that I can’t imagine comes up.

    #14219

    notarywelove
    Participant

    @geber wrote:

    Of course, I can’t see what the document looked like before the wife signed, but it might have just had a blank line for Joe Smith. It isn’t always the case that all the signature lines are signed on the same occasion; sometimes the document is mailed around the country to collect the various signatures before various notaries. So if you don’t enter in your journal that the wife signed as AIF for the husband, someone might claim she didn’t and that some unknown person in some unknown place illegally signed that line.

    Since my imagination isn’t good enough to predict what might happen in the future, I document everything, in case some question that I can’t imagine comes up.

    The document is a deed of trust. She signed for her husband. That is it.

    Oh, in that case… would it be too late to ask her to sign as AIF?, also finger print…because it happened already… My other Notary Public friend has encountered this. Now she would be in trouble if she didn’t record the AIF’s signature, right? Just how would you id an AIF? It is still the AIF’s ID you will write down, not the principal’s right because he did not physically present himself. This is really interesting.. Thank you for your input.

    #14220

    LindaHFL
    Participant

    @notarywelove wrote:

    @geber wrote:

    Of course, I can’t see what the document looked like before the wife signed, but it might have just had a blank line for Joe Smith. It isn’t always the case that all the signature lines are signed on the same occasion; sometimes the document is mailed around the country to collect the various signatures before various notaries. So if you don’t enter in your journal that the wife signed as AIF for the husband, someone might claim she didn’t and that some unknown person in some unknown place illegally signed that line.

    Since my imagination isn’t good enough to predict what might happen in the future, I document everything, in case some question that I can’t imagine comes up.

    The document is a deed of trust. She signed for her husband. That is it.

    Oh, in that case… would it be too late to ask her to sign as AIF?, also finger print…because it happened already… My other Notary Public friend has encountered this. Now she would be in trouble if she didn’t record the AIF’s signature, right? Just how would you id an AIF? It is still the AIF’s ID you will write down, not the principal’s right because he did not physically present himself. This is really interesting.. Thank you for your input.

    Personally I think if the AIF signs your journal individually as you ID’d her you’d be okay to make a note that she also signed as AIF for her husband. But your ID is of her individually. Depending on your location, capacity may be beyond your authority.

    JMO

    #14221

    jmalone
    Moderator

    Hi notarywelove. I am assuming you are in California. You state the wife is the AIF for her husband.
    She is the person who physically appeared before you, only her name goes into your notarial certificates, because she is the only one who personally appeared.

    In your journal, hers is the only information you record. Remember we notarize signatures. It is not our responsibility to know if she actually has this power.

    You can add a note in your journal that states she is signing as AIF for her husband, Joe Doe. Keep it simple.

    #14222

    jmalone
    Moderator

    Too funny. Linda and I posted at the same time. When a principal signs a POA, this requires a thumbprint in your journal. Also, a Deed of Trust requires a thumbprint in your journal. The only thumbprint is the person you I.D. and that appeared before you.

    #14223

    notarywelove
    Participant

    @jmalone wrote:

    Hi notarywelove. I am assuming you are in California. You state the wife is the AIF for her husband.
    She is the person who physically appeared before you, only her name goes into your notarial certificates, because she is the only one who personally appeared.

    In your journal, hers is the only information you record. Remember we notarize signatures. It is not our responsibility to know if she actually has this power.

    You can add a note in your journal that states she is signing as AIF for her husband, Joe Doe. Keep it simple.

    Yes. I am in California. The Deed of trust calls for both husband and wife’s signatures. So the wife signs for herself, and she also signs for her husband as his AIF in their Deed of Trust doc.

    So, may I recap and hopefully get this right this time:
    1) I make one entry in my journal for the wife (because she is the principal who presents in front of me).
    2) I make one entry in my journal for the husband’s AIF = (in this case, the wife). (because this AIF signs in front of me).
    As the AIF’s ID, I take her ID again, record it and ask her to sign her husband’s name + attorney-in-fact, and thumb print her.

    3) If a notary public didn’t do #2 (thinking that the person signs happens to be the AIF of other person in the same document), can the notary public make an addendum to recapture AIF’s signature later on?

    She tried to contact the CA gov but no one could give me any answer except directing her back to the handbook. 🙂

    Thanks a lot to all of your replies.

    #14224

    jmalone
    Moderator

    Yes. I am in California. The Deed of trust calls for both husband and wife’s signatures. So the wife signs for herself, and she also signs for her husband as his AIF in their Deed of Trust doc.

    So, may I recap and hopefully get this right this time:
    1) I make one entry in my journal for the wife (because she is the principal who presents in front of me).
    2) I make one entry in my journal for the husband’s AIF = (in this case, the wife). (because this AIF signs in front of me).
    As the AIF’s ID, I take her ID again, record it and ask her to sign her husband’s name + attorney-in-fact, and thumb print her.

    3) If a notary public didn’t do #2 (thinking that the person signs happens to be the AIF of other person in the same document), can the notary public make an addendum to recapture AIF’s signature later on?

    She tried to contact the CA gov but no one could give me any answer except directing her back to the handbook.

    You know notarywelove, you really got my brain working here. I posed the question to other notaries and posted on another board. This is the type of questions, they SHOULD have on the notary exam.

    The consensus is:

    In your notarial certificate you only put the name of the individual before you, whom you I.D.’d. Therefore, it is just the individual who appeared before you that you put in your journal with their signature, I.D. info. and thumbprint.

    In optional notes in your journal, you can put that this individual was also the AIF for John Doe.

    You would not put a separate entry for her husband. She cannot put a thumbprint for her husband either. Attorney in Fact is a capacity. This is used for signing the documents. The only person in the journal is the person who appeared before you.

    #14225

    jmalone
    Moderator

    Ooops! Sorry, put the quotes wrong above. Hope you get the gist.

    #14226

    july1962
    Participant

    Hmmmm, we didn’t go over this scenario in class.

    So as an AIF, do they have to prove that they are indeed the AIF? Otherwise, how do we know they have the right to sign for the husband? If she doesn’t have the right, wouldn’t the document be incomplete or false?

    Or, as the Notary, are we just notarizing the AIF’s affirmation that she is indeed the AIF?

    #14227

    july1962
    Participant

    Hmmmm, we didn’t go over this scenario in class.

    So as an AIF, do they have to prove that they are indeed the AIF? Otherwise, how do we know they have the right to sign for the husband? If she doesn’t have the right, wouldn’t the document be incomplete or false?

    Or, as the Notary, are we just notarizing the AIF’s affirmation that she is indeed the AIF?

    #14228

    jmalone
    Moderator

    July1962. It is not our job or responsibility to determine if the individual has the Power to sign for someone else. With loan signings, the lender usually ask for original POA, but we don’t need to see it.

    If they say they are signing as an AIF, fine! We I.D. and notarize their signature. We cannot determine capacity.

    #14229

    mharmon
    Participant

    @july1962 wrote:

    So as an AIF, do they have to prove that they are indeed the AIF? Otherwise, how do we know they have the right to sign for the husband? If she doesn’t have the right, wouldn’t the document be incomplete or false?

    Or, as the Notary, are we just notarizing the AIF’s affirmation that she is indeed the AIF?

    It’s not our job to determine if somebody has the ‘right’ to sign something. We’re there to witness the signing itself. In California, as a notary, you SHOULD NOT even ask them to prove that they are the AIF. Don’t ask to see the POA document. This has to do with “determining” capacity. The wording of our acknowledgments is such that they claim whatever capacity they may have. You only ID the person in front you. If they claim to be the AIF… then that’s what they claim. Note that in our acknowledgment wording it says, “they acknowledged to me that they executed the same in their authorized capacities..”

    CA Civil Code 1189 says that we are not allowed to “determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity.

    IMO, the reason for this is because the determination of the legality of a document (including the AIF) is up to the courts. Notarizations do not have any impact on the legality of a document… they only serve to prove the identity of the signer and establish certain facts. If the person signing a document doesn’t have the legal right to sign a document, that’s a court’s decision, not ours.

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